iggy, incidents such as the one you linked to are very, very unfortunate, but are the inevitable side effects of a (relatively) free society. When you allow people to have free will, then there will be some people who use that free will to do harm to others. But just because someone dies doesn't mean that we should scrap the idea of personal freedom. If it did that would mean we'd have to ban a lot of things... many that would be a lot higher on the "list" than guns. For example, and I know I've used this example before, but cars kill more than two and a half times as many people per year in the US as guns, but we can both agree that it would be ridiculous to ban cars because of this, can't we? Life is extremely important, but everyone's personal freedom is very important too.
Another example, knives. They kill almost 2K people per year in the US. Should they be banned as well? Should there be a one month waiting period, heavy tax, required background checks, mental evaluations, required knife safe, lots of paperwork, and so on before you can have the ability to own one knife so you can cut your steak and veggies? Even though this would mainly just make it a lot more difficult for non-criminals like you and me to own them, while the criminals could continue getting them just as easily and the "knife murder rate" would likely remain unchanged?
You can't just focus on the bad. Cars take many lives but they also save many lives, not just directly but indirectly, and make life much easier. As do knives. It's the same with guns: they take many lives, but they also save many lives. In fact compared to cars and knives, guns play a much more important role in a free society (although both are important).
Well, IMHO the NFL guy chose the protection he needed. He didn't choose wisely. I'm not against keeping guns out of everyone's hands. The problem is that everyone already has one (or many for that matter.) The reasoning about all the violence out there requiring protection is used to justify having this killing thing right at hand. What happens when YOU get into a killing state of mind - like our NFL shooter? You assume that you and I would never get into that frame of mind. I know I've been there and if I had the gun sitting there, I would have used it and be in jail today. We can all be pushed into a situation where we feel trapped. We all get angry. Having the gun available might make you feel safer in those imagined situations. Having the gun physically there in your hands with those thoughts working you up into using it would not make you "safer."
I have a friend who grew up with my son. They lived a few blocks apart and they were best friends. This friend is now serving time - no parole ever - for murder. He was 16 when he did it. He killed a woman neighbor with a heavy wooden stick. So, you are right. It's not guns that kill people. I know that he had a gun among his things where he lived. So, he already had the option. This guy was thinking some pretty weird thoughts way before anything transpired. I don't think he could have stopped unless someone else had the needed awareness. He had seen a therapist a number of times.
My son decided to study Sociology in college. That decision may have been influenced by what his best friend did.
Maybe I'm using too big a brush in this. I've never been invaded by someone coming into my house to rape my wife or steal my TV. I think the chance of this kind of thing happening is quite remote. We do have bears wandering around, along with coyotes and mountain lions. Still, they don't just decide to break in and get the dog food. Even with your statistics, I have the stupid faith that that kind of violence won't happen. If it did, I don't think I would have the gun at arms reach where I could use it to defend myself. I would really have to change my whole approach to what life is about to justify buying a killing instrument. Yeah, I do have chainsaws and various kitchen knives, axes, etc. They are far from the house in the tool shed (OK, the kitchen knives are closer.) Have you ever had the statistical violence you are needing the gun for, happen to you? I've asked this before. Do you know anyone to whom a violent assault has happened? Do you really believe that if he were carrying a loaded gun, he would be able to stop the violent attack by pulling the gun out? Would you feel safer if you were getting drunk in a bar with him? As long as life is running smooth, it's just not needed to have the heavy piece of metal in the holster. When life stops running smoothly, you can stand your ground and fire away, or you can get out the back, Jack.
I used to be an avid Sunday sitter. I knew all the stats. I always ate a large bag of potato chips or Cheetos. After a few years of participation, I noticed that I had quite a belly and I'd be huffing if I climbed up the stairs. It was like going to church - tradition. So, I finally just threw out the TV and started running instead. I missed a few Stargates. Big deal. We can easily be brainwashed by the media and the commercials.
I haven't cared about who won, or who was on Superbowl at halftime. I feel quite a bit stronger and I don't have the belly. There actually is something better to do instead of vegging out the whole day. The same goes for the college games on Saturday - and the local high school games on Friday.
I wouldn't mind some better TV programming. The last show I really liked was West Wing. Then there were the last elections which got me involved.
So, I agree, Geno. Let's stop the AFL/NFL entirely. It's become like wrestling - big show with lots of money for everyone involved. The steroids and concussions might have some affect on the mental state of these guys. It seems that politics are also in the same world. Entertainment is what it's about. But, I'm getting quite tired of all the sound bites and spin doctors. FOX and MSNBC both have the same story - just opposite color. It's all the big game to entice the public to watch commercials.
I don't have to search very far to find reports like the one linked above. I guess if we had more guns out there we would be less likely to have situations like these.
I guess living in a rural area does have something to do with my unreasonable attitude. I have lived in cities most of my life. I came across the Atlantic to the USA in 1949 at the age of 3. I lived in Brooklyn for 4 years. Then we moved to the south side of Chicago because many Lithuanians could do the meat hacking in the Stock Yards without speaking English. A ghetto was created because of this. I left there and lived in LA (Santa Monica, the Venice canals, and Laurel Canyon) for 10 years. Then, the Bay Area - Concord, Walnut Creek, Niles, Hayward - all cheap rent lower class areas. I couldn't afford anything better. When I got a bonus from work, I put down enough money to buy a house in Hayward. I moved out to the boonies as I realized I didn't like the stress and the environment in which I was raising my two kids. Yep! There are a lot less wrestlingmania events out here. But, somehow I manage. I can work on my cars and tractors without upsetting the neighbors or the cops. I suppose I can't get to the Starbucks or Walmart as easily. But, I find that one 45 mile trip to costco covers my needs each month. The city does have gangs, drugs, and traffic lights. I don't miss it that much.
Here's another gun story. There seems to be a lot of them. Did you see the Costas statement quoting some guy on Fox Sports? There are lots of guns around where even kids can get their hands on them. If it wasn't so easy to obtain a gun, these kids might try a pipe wrench or bow and arrow to rob someone. But, these kids are really young and I'm sure they don't look as old as their fake IDs say.
We are a very violent society. We can start somewhere to stop it. The common citizen needs protection from kids like these. Would you pull out your gun and shoot them if you were confronted by them?
One more issue that bothers me. Did you know that, in Arkansas, atheists aren't allowed be witnesses in a trail? Atheists, in Muslim countries, can be executed for their beliefs - or lack thereof. Treat everyone like you'd like to be treated - that Christian proverb - doesn't always apply it seems. The political world, the religious world, and the humanitarian world seem to be somehow connected. If you don't agree with what we all believe, you are not free to express it. America, the land of the free, was created by immigrants from Europe in order to have religious freedom - so I read in History books.
We still have a way to go to insure true freedom for our citizens. The government is getting permission to read our emails with no warrant needed. Watch what you Twitter. You may be arrested.
So, I see another reason to get that gun. There's surely some situation where the CIA or FBI will be coming after those who dissent with the beliefs required to be a true American.
It's 45 miles one way to Merced from here. We drive out about once a month for food and car parts.
Well, today there was some guy in Portland, Oregon who decided to shoot two people in a shopping mall. Then, he shot himself. So, there won't be any interviews about what his motivation was. There seems to be a lot of shootings in the US. Having the gun right there did make his quest easier. Sure, he could have just driven into a crowd of people, but, could he guarantee that they all would die? The gun just presents the easiest way to kill. Maybe if I was better connected with the rest of the world I'd see a more balanced set of facts. The media does report the school shootings and the various people who go "postal" fairly often. I suppose I'll just learn to get used to it.
I don't ever feel threatened. I must be very naive. I would feel much more in danger if I carried a loaded gun on my body or in my truck. But, I don't live in a densely packed city with a lot of interactions happening every day. I did for many years and I still never felt threatened. During my travels all over the world there were lots of places with army guys with guns. Still, no threat to me. I don't read the statistics about how many murders or gunshot wounds a hospital deals with daily.
I guess it can be exciting to own the gun and do some shooting. It might be some kind of power trip. I just don't get it. Why does half the population want to endanger everyone in the house by having a way to get shot in the drawer?
I just can't imagine a situation where I'd be pulling the trigger against my fellow man. My family has protected itself for all this time. I don't need to protect them either.
There are so many ways for me to kill something that is attacking me. I have chainsaws, axes, machetes, etc. The need has never come up. I guess I'm not really prepared for that moment. Oh well, I'll just take my chances. I don't buy life insurance either.
I think we're all getting used to this. It's too bad that we get to see stuff like this nearly every day. I guess the good thing about it is that these guys often kill themselves and take themselves out of the gene pool - kinda like the terrorist suicide bombers. But still, I'd like to talk about how to limit the tools available to do the killing. If they weren't so available in the hardware stores, the guy might have to get a bit creative to obtain a gun(which will guarantee killing success.) The thought process might also have him think a bit longer about what he's planning to do, and will it resolve his problem.
If you need a tractor to do some road work, you can rent one. It's not that easy to find someone who will lend you his tractor. It must be easier to find someone who will lend you his gun. Or, you can just go and buy one. A tractor does cost more. So, you just don't get the opportunity to get the tractor work done whenever you feel like it. Having the gun cost a couple of hundred dollars makes it easy to obtain for anyone. I think the guns ought to be very high priced. If they were, the gun manufacturer would make a ton of money. If everyone had guns, then any conflict would end up in a shoot-out. It should be hard to find a gun anywhere. The criminal can get one by having a non-criminal friend buy one for him. Easy-peasy. Let's make it more difficult in order to keep them out of the hands of the crazies.
Thanks for that, cyclo. This is a problem that really needs a lot of attention.
I have thought about collecting the guns from all the neighbors. I don't think it would be a very popular idea. I know that the guns just sit in a drawer until something out of the ordinary happens. Then, either the criminal takes the gun away and shoots the owner or takes his own gun out when he sees that the owner has heat. The situation doesn't happen that often. The gun in the house isn't that accessible to deal with those unexpected times. I don't think the house is safer.
There are so many guns that I have to stop thinking about removing them. Whatever reason they are there is OK with me, I guess.
We do manufacture lots of arms, fighter planes, tanks, etc. I guess it's what we do well and we arm most of the rest of the world with high-tech machinery.
I'm waiting for China to enter this marketplace and sell Kalishnikov knock-offs at Walmart.
We have the strongest armed forces. No one else spends what we do to have these strengths.
I don't want to start a Civil War about guns.
It's really a symptom of our society. Mental problems might be another symptom. I don't know what to do about this.
So, we have more guns than anywhere else, right here. Forget about places like Afghanistan or Iran. I guess this has fixed the problem of safety for us all. It's too bad that sometimes people actually do get killed by shootings. The stats I've been hearing is that 34,000 people are killed by guns every year in the USA - 18,000 are suicides. It looks like when things get tough, all one needs to do is eat the Glock for dinner. I think that crazies like this aren't thinking about themselves dying - I don't think Death Row has proven to be a disincentive to gun violence. It's way beyond that. If you're shooting up a school, you know you will die too. I'm not convinced that the school shootings would have been stopped by someone out there pulling his gun out. He would be the next guy shot. These assault rifles can shoot 30 bullets in a second. So, the shooter is just looking for targets. Maybe while he's reloading, there would be a moment. Maybe not.
So, there's a small school (100 students) in Texas that has the teachers carrying guns. I guess the way of the wild west is safer than what we've learned since. Yeah, more guns equals safety - very logical.
Remember dynamite? You can't get it in the hardware store anymore. I think we're safer by not having it sitting in the garage. Just a thought. Why is it so hard to get C4? Black market could make it?
The problem there is that the password can usually be changed or over-ridden. It would be great if only your hand print or thumbprint would allow the gun to work. Then, the crazy would have to get your wine glass and make a glove with your hand print. If he's that driven, he could just get an older gun from today's pile. It would make a good movie.
Comments
Knives, too easy to obtain (guns, not easy enough to obtain?): http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx
Also:
http://www.carolinalive.com/news/story.aspx?id=779529#.ULzooWf-Z8H
http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Armed-bystander-stops-stabbing-outside-school/6zTYMpy8pUOeyrbElEBOTQ.cspx?rss=1724
http://www2.alabamas13.com/news/2012/aug/16/woman-forced-shoot-intruder-protect-herself-and-ch-ar-4355974/
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57352784-504083/okla-mom-sarah-mckinley-wont-face-charges-for-shooting-intruder/
...
iggy, incidents such as the one you linked to are very, very unfortunate, but are the inevitable side effects of a (relatively) free society. When you allow people to have free will, then there will be some people who use that free will to do harm to others. But just because someone dies doesn't mean that we should scrap the idea of personal freedom. If it did that would mean we'd have to ban a lot of things... many that would be a lot higher on the "list" than guns. For example, and I know I've used this example before, but cars kill more than two and a half times as many people per year in the US as guns, but we can both agree that it would be ridiculous to ban cars because of this, can't we? Life is extremely important, but everyone's personal freedom is very important too.
Another example, knives. They kill almost 2K people per year in the US. Should they be banned as well? Should there be a one month waiting period, heavy tax, required background checks, mental evaluations, required knife safe, lots of paperwork, and so on before you can have the ability to own one knife so you can cut your steak and veggies? Even though this would mainly just make it a lot more difficult for non-criminals like you and me to own them, while the criminals could continue getting them just as easily and the "knife murder rate" would likely remain unchanged?
You can't just focus on the bad. Cars take many lives but they also save many lives, not just directly but indirectly, and make life much easier. As do knives. It's the same with guns: they take many lives, but they also save many lives. In fact compared to cars and knives, guns play a much more important role in a free society (although both are important).
Oh and here's why someone might need protection, here are some real-world crime statistics: http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/uscrime.htm
The reasoning about all the violence out there requiring protection is used to justify having this killing thing right at hand. What happens when YOU get into a killing state of mind - like our NFL shooter?
You assume that you and I would never get into that frame of mind. I know I've been there and if I had the gun sitting there, I would have used it and be in jail today. We can all be pushed into a situation where we feel trapped. We all get angry. Having the gun available might make you feel safer in those imagined situations. Having the gun physically there in your hands with those thoughts working you up into using it would not make you "safer."
I have a friend who grew up with my son. They lived a few blocks apart and they were best friends. This friend is now serving time - no parole ever - for murder. He was 16 when he did it. He killed a woman neighbor with a heavy wooden stick. So, you are right. It's not guns that kill people. I know that he had a gun among his things where he lived. So, he already had the option. This guy was thinking some pretty weird thoughts way before anything transpired. I don't think he could have stopped unless someone else had the needed awareness. He had seen a therapist a number of times.
My son decided to study Sociology in college. That decision may have been influenced by what his best friend did.
Maybe I'm using too big a brush in this. I've never been invaded by someone coming into my house to rape my wife or steal my TV. I think the chance of this kind of thing happening is quite remote. We do have bears wandering around, along with coyotes and mountain lions. Still, they don't just decide to break in and get the dog food. Even with your statistics, I have the stupid faith that that kind of violence won't happen. If it did, I don't think I would have the gun at arms reach where I could use it to defend myself. I would really have to change my whole approach to what life is about to justify buying a killing instrument. Yeah, I do have chainsaws and various kitchen knives, axes, etc. They are far from the house in the tool shed (OK, the kitchen knives are closer.) Have you ever had the statistical violence you are needing the gun for, happen to you? I've asked this before. Do you know anyone to whom a violent assault has happened? Do you really believe that if he were carrying a loaded gun, he would be able to stop the violent attack by pulling the gun out? Would you feel safer if you were getting drunk in a bar with him? As long as life is running smooth, it's just not needed to have the heavy piece of metal in the holster. When life stops running smoothly, you can stand your ground and fire away, or you can get out the back, Jack.
I haven't cared about who won, or who was on Superbowl at halftime. I feel quite a bit stronger and I don't have the belly. There actually is something better to do instead of vegging out the whole day. The same goes for the college games on Saturday - and the local high school games on Friday.
I wouldn't mind some better TV programming. The last show I really liked was West Wing. Then there were the last elections which got me involved.
So, I agree, Geno. Let's stop the AFL/NFL entirely. It's become like wrestling - big show with lots of money for everyone involved. The steroids and concussions might have some affect on the mental state of these guys. It seems that politics are also in the same world. Entertainment is what it's about. But, I'm getting quite tired of all the sound bites and spin doctors. FOX and MSNBC both have the same story - just opposite color. It's all the big game to entice the public to watch commercials.
I don't have to search very far to find reports like the one linked above. I guess if we had more guns out there we would be less likely to have situations like these.
I guess living in a rural area does have something to do with my unreasonable attitude. I have lived in cities most of my life. I came across the Atlantic to the USA in 1949 at the age of 3. I lived in Brooklyn for 4 years. Then we moved to the south side of Chicago because many Lithuanians could do the meat hacking in the Stock Yards without speaking English. A ghetto was created because of this. I left there and lived in LA (Santa Monica, the Venice canals, and Laurel Canyon) for 10 years. Then, the Bay Area - Concord, Walnut Creek, Niles, Hayward - all cheap rent lower class areas. I couldn't afford anything better. When I got a bonus from work, I put down enough money to buy a house in Hayward. I moved out to the boonies as I realized I didn't like the stress and the environment in which I was raising my two kids. Yep! There are a lot less wrestlingmania events out here. But, somehow I manage. I can work on my cars and tractors without upsetting the neighbors or the cops. I suppose I can't get to the Starbucks or Walmart as easily. But, I find that one 45 mile trip to costco covers my needs each month. The city does have gangs, drugs, and traffic lights. I don't miss it that much.
If it wasn't so easy to obtain a gun, these kids might try a pipe wrench or bow and arrow to rob someone. But, these kids are really young and I'm sure they don't look as old as their fake IDs say.
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2012/12/09/boys-robbery-gun/1757653/
We are a very violent society. We can start somewhere to stop it. The common citizen needs protection from kids like these. Would you pull out your gun and shoot them if you were confronted by them?
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/12/10/15814394-like-lesser-americans-atheists-face-discrimination-persecution-report-says?lite
We still have a way to go to insure true freedom for our citizens. The government is getting permission to read our emails with no warrant needed. Watch what you Twitter. You may be arrested.
So, I see another reason to get that gun. There's surely some situation where the CIA or FBI will be coming after those who dissent with the beliefs required to be a true American.
Well, today there was some guy in Portland, Oregon who decided to shoot two people in a shopping mall. Then, he shot himself. So, there won't be any interviews about what his motivation was. There seems to be a lot of shootings in the US. Having the gun right there did make his quest easier. Sure, he could have just driven into a crowd of people, but, could he guarantee that they all would die? The gun just presents the easiest way to kill. Maybe if I was better connected with the rest of the world I'd see a more balanced set of facts. The media does report the school shootings and the various people who go "postal" fairly often. I suppose I'll just learn to get used to it.
I don't ever feel threatened. I must be very naive. I would feel much more in danger if I carried a loaded gun on my body or in my truck. But, I don't live in a densely packed city with a lot of interactions happening every day. I did for many years and I still never felt threatened. During my travels all over the world there were lots of places with army guys with guns. Still, no threat to me.
I don't read the statistics about how many murders or gunshot wounds a hospital deals with daily.
I guess it can be exciting to own the gun and do some shooting. It might be some kind of power trip.
I just don't get it. Why does half the population want to endanger everyone in the house by having a way to get shot in the drawer?
I just can't imagine a situation where I'd be pulling the trigger against my fellow man.
My family has protected itself for all this time. I don't need to protect them either.
There are so many ways for me to kill something that is attacking me. I have chainsaws, axes, machetes, etc. The need has never come up.
I guess I'm not really prepared for that moment.
Oh well, I'll just take my chances.
I don't buy life insurance either.
If you need a tractor to do some road work, you can rent one. It's not that easy to find someone who will lend you his tractor. It must be easier to find someone who will lend you his gun. Or, you can just go and buy one. A tractor does cost more. So, you just don't get the opportunity to get the tractor work done whenever you feel like it. Having the gun cost a couple of hundred dollars makes it easy to obtain for anyone. I think the guns ought to be very high priced. If they were, the gun manufacturer would make a ton of money. If everyone had guns, then any conflict would end up in a shoot-out. It should be hard to find a gun anywhere. The criminal can get one by having a non-criminal friend buy one for him. Easy-peasy. Let's make it more difficult in order to keep them out of the hands of the crazies.
I have thought about collecting the guns from all the neighbors. I don't think it would be a very popular idea.
I know that the guns just sit in a drawer until something out of the ordinary happens. Then, either the criminal takes the gun away and shoots the owner or takes his own gun out when he sees that
the owner has heat. The situation doesn't happen that often. The gun in the house isn't that accessible to deal with those unexpected times. I don't think the house is safer.
There are so many guns that I have to stop thinking about removing them. Whatever reason they are there is OK with me, I guess.
We do manufacture lots of arms, fighter planes, tanks, etc. I guess it's what we do well and we arm most of the rest of the world with high-tech machinery.
I'm waiting for China to enter this marketplace and sell Kalishnikov knock-offs at Walmart.
We have the strongest armed forces. No one else spends what we do to have these strengths.
I don't want to start a Civil War about guns.
It's really a symptom of our society.
Mental problems might be another symptom.
I don't know what to do about this.
This armed off duty officer ended up shooting and stopping another "mall shooter" yesterday: http://www.theblaze.com/stories/man-attempts-to-open-fire-on-crowd-at-movie-theater-armed-off-duty-sheriffs-deputy-drops-him-with-one-bullet/
I've not really been watching the mainstream media, but for those who have, was either incident covered at all? I wouldn't be surprised if not.
The stats I've been hearing is that 34,000 people are killed by guns every year in the USA - 18,000 are suicides.
It looks like when things get tough, all one needs to do is eat the Glock for dinner.
I think that crazies like this aren't thinking about themselves dying - I don't think Death Row has proven to be a disincentive to gun violence. It's way beyond that. If you're shooting up a school, you know you will die too.
I'm not convinced that the school shootings would have been stopped by someone out there pulling his gun out. He would be the next guy shot. These assault rifles can shoot 30 bullets in a second. So, the shooter is just looking for targets. Maybe while he's reloading, there would be a moment. Maybe not.
So, there's a small school (100 students) in Texas that has the teachers carrying guns. I guess the way of the wild west is safer than what we've learned since. Yeah, more guns equals safety - very logical.
Remember dynamite? You can't get it in the hardware store anymore. I think we're safer by not having it sitting in the garage. Just a thought. Why is it so hard to get C4? Black market could make it?