Let me ask you this: To date, there has been no proof that a "gay gene" even exists. There has been much speculation, considerable research, and (by some) lots of hope, because to find one would validate some claims to normalacy.
Hypothetically, if they reported that they found a "gay gene" tomorrow, but upon closer examination it was a mutation of the "hetero gene" would you then believe that homosexuality is a disease?
Isn't any genetic trait that has changed throughout time a "mutation?"
A genetic mutation doesn't automatically mean that the mutation will cause a defect or disease; it's (sometimes) just a change in DNA in response to an environmental variable.
Why does it matter what people do by themselves. Is it important to find out what she dressed up as or if the kitchen table was used in some new way? Is this all about procreation - which is defined as good - and everything else sexual is a sin?
We are people with imaginations and many strange ideas. I can see drawing the line at bestiality or necrophilia - because one of the partners may not be as interested - but, if both participants are OK with it, what does it matter? Don't we have enough rules?
Then why make an issue of it? What goes on behind closed doors, goes on behind closed doors. If the gay's community choice is to be identified solely for their sexual preference, then they are foolish not to expect a certain degree of opposition. Just as if swingers suddenly became militant in their fervor to be recognized as an equal part of society. The same opposition that the gay community has experienced would also be put on the swingers.
Carnoj seems to have a handle on my point. I'm not trying to dictate what consenting adults are allowed (not allowed) to do, rather I'm just cross-examining the (sometimes) militant insistance that we all MUST accept homosexuality as a normal aspect of the human condition (prescribed validation).
Let's not forget here that homosexuality was not taken off the list of mental illnesses because of any scientific findings, but purely to appease and dispense with a militant demonstration that was disrupting the annual meeting of the sanctioning body (American Psychiatric Association or something similar)
Also to Iggy I'd point out that it is the progay agenda that is "ever-forwarding" their way towards (among other things) re-defining marriage, re-defining gender roles, re-defining adoption "rights", and trying to re-define employee benefit programs that companies provide to employees and their significant others, so by their very insistance in toeing the line, it is they drawing that line. Are you trying to imply that only supportive dialog should be allowed?
Point as a valid response to counter point and vice versa, you might say
Post edited 11/13/2010 @ 6:25:23 AM by Knuckledragger
I guess from where I stand, you guys are the ones singling the gays and their lifestyle out. I'm not making an issue out of it. I'm saying that, granted, they do some things differently. They had to form their ghetto to be able to walk around in public. To them this is civil rights to be what they are.
So, yeah, it's clear that the opposition exists. But what's the point of the opposition? Should the gays just stay in the closet and let Don't Ask Don't Tell be the rule because of tradition? Slavery was a tradition for a long time until there were people making a stand - getting hung for it.
When a group is singled out and treated differently, it is a civil rights issue. The Nazis treated the Jews this way. Ghettos and gas chambers for the ones with that genetic makeup. Were all the Jews mentally ill?
These are people with the same requirements that the straight people have. They are re-defining marriage, adoption, employee benefits, etc. so they could live as we do - without some distinction being put on them.
I guess if you feel that being gay is some kind of illness that requires that they all be put in a mental facility, that might be considered singling them out. If you can live with someone who is openly gay or trans-sexual or whatever other way life provides to view all of this stuff, it would be more compassionate a world. They are not re-defining what your marriage is. They just want to love someone and live with someone in the same world as you do. Can you make an adjustment in your way of viewing them?
So, how would you suggest we resolve this? If you feel persecuted for looking like something other than the ideal movie star, would rejecting gays as being irregular, abnormal people make you feel better? Is this about gays or about the way you are treated in the world? Aren't gays also not hired because they aren't clean or perfect?
I'm not sure that anyone is insisting that you change your beliefs. It seems to me that the gays have been grouped as being unfit for duty in the Armed Forces because they are attracted to a particular gender. Whether I'm working within a group that is attracted to girls or boys doesn't force me to believe in anything different. I'm still attracted to whomever I'm attracted - whether I'm told what's allowed or not.
I know you aren't saying to exterminate them. I was comparing the way the Nazis justified their actions to the way our "free country" treats the gays.
There will always be militant activists who would like to change the status quo. They do the protesting. Isn't that their right - to say what they feel?
It's your right not to listen to them. They are trying to change the awareness of the public about the issue. They aren't putting the thumbscrews to you. It's just another news issue that affects the way this fairly large group has to live. If they stay in the closet, they can survive in this homophobic world. But, why not try to change the homophobia so that they could live like the rest of us.
It's just a way of looking at it. I've learned to adjust. I've never been approached by any of my gay friends - maybe I'm not good looking enough.
I was prejudiced against Blacks as I grew up in Chicago. They lived on the other side of the tracks and I was scared to go there. As I grew older, I recognized that they aren't some group of wildmen that will kill me if I go there. I made some Black friends in college and my prejudice just went away.
I also felt the same way about gays when I was young and ignorant. I was told by the religious, Church-going, Right wing in Chicago what deviations these weird people would do. It disgusted me. I kept these views until I met some gay people in LA. I learned that they were people - not wild carnal animals. They also ate food and brushed their teeth. They had some preferences that differed from mine. So, I stopped being disgusted about what they do in their bedroom because some people like the Dolphins and some people like the 49ers. There's nothing to reject in that.
Iggy, How do you stand on the Goth generation, and would they be accepted in a professional office setting? Their clothing and their piercing and tatoos define and distinguish them as Goth. Should an office have to change their dress code to accomodate the dress habits of the Goths? A Goth is a visible minority, are they not? I would dare say that you would have difficulty picking out some gays in a line up of people. You would have no problem picking out the Goths.
Oh yes, for sure, of course we all have the right to express ourselves in any way we desire. Unless the people around us agree that we don't. Social reality.
Seen many people walking around town nude lately?
I rest my case.
Most of the choices we make everyday are automatic and were first made by people long dead. My local Apple store employs Goths. You won't see many Wall Street men without ties around their necks and women without high heals.
No one is forcing you, Kd, to believe anything you want about homosexuality or anything else. You are free to ignore all the facts you like. And you take full advantage of that freedom.
carnoj, should an employer be able to fire people for wearing a cross on a necklace or a cross on a wedding ring advertising their faith?
Taking the above point of view about animals, anything anyone does is natural. We're all on this earth naturally - unless you're an alien. I guess even the aliens would be here "naturally" because this planet is just one of many they can visit in this natural universe.
I guess only the natural people can decide who belongs to their club. Everyone else is unnatural and should be placed in the closet out of sight. That will make the world natural again.
The flaw in the argument is that the hardliners try and bridge between the concepts of "natural" to "normal" as though one clearly begets the other, and this is clearly a line of reason built on fallacious logic
Comments
Hypothetically, if they reported that they found a "gay gene" tomorrow, but upon closer examination it was a mutation of the "hetero gene" would you then believe that homosexuality is a disease?
never mind, adding this post made the others appear.. weird.
A genetic mutation doesn't automatically mean that the mutation will cause a defect or disease; it's (sometimes) just a change in DNA in response to an environmental variable.
We are people with imaginations and many strange ideas. I can see drawing the line at bestiality or necrophilia - because one of the partners may not be as interested - but, if both participants are OK with it, what does it matter? Don't we have enough rules?
Let's not forget here that homosexuality was not taken off the list of mental illnesses because of any scientific findings, but purely to appease and dispense with a militant demonstration that was disrupting the annual meeting of the sanctioning body (American Psychiatric Association or something similar)
Also to Iggy I'd point out that it is the progay agenda that is "ever-forwarding" their way towards (among other things) re-defining marriage, re-defining gender roles, re-defining adoption "rights", and trying to re-define employee benefit programs that companies provide to employees and their significant others, so by their very insistance in toeing the line, it is they drawing that line. Are you trying to imply that only supportive dialog should be allowed?
Point as a valid response to counter point and vice versa, you might say
So, yeah, it's clear that the opposition exists. But what's the point of the opposition?
Should the gays just stay in the closet and let Don't Ask Don't Tell be the rule because of tradition? Slavery was a tradition for a long time until there were people making a stand - getting hung for it.
When a group is singled out and treated differently, it is a civil rights issue. The Nazis treated the Jews this way. Ghettos and gas chambers for the ones with that genetic makeup. Were all the Jews mentally ill?
These are people with the same requirements that the straight people have. They are re-defining marriage, adoption, employee benefits, etc. so they could live as we do - without some distinction being put on them.
I guess if you feel that being gay is some kind of illness that requires that they all be put in a mental facility, that might be considered singling them out. If you can live with someone who is openly gay or trans-sexual or whatever other way life provides to view all of this stuff, it would be more compassionate a world. They are not re-defining what your marriage is. They just want to love someone and live with someone in the same world as you do. Can you make an adjustment in your way of viewing them?
I'm not sure that anyone is insisting that you change your beliefs. It seems to me that the gays have been grouped as being unfit for duty in the Armed Forces because they are attracted to a particular gender. Whether I'm working within a group that is attracted to girls or boys doesn't force me to believe in anything different. I'm still attracted to whomever I'm attracted - whether I'm told what's allowed or not.
I know you aren't saying to exterminate them. I was comparing the way the Nazis justified their actions to the way our "free country" treats the gays.
There will always be militant activists who would like to change the status quo. They do the protesting. Isn't that their right - to say what they feel?
It's your right not to listen to them. They are trying to change the awareness of the public about the issue. They aren't putting the thumbscrews to you. It's just another news issue that affects the way this fairly large group has to live. If they stay in the closet, they can survive in this homophobic world. But, why not try to change the homophobia so that they could live like the rest of us.
It's just a way of looking at it. I've learned to adjust. I've never been approached by any of my gay friends - maybe I'm not good looking enough.
I was prejudiced against Blacks as I grew up in Chicago. They lived on the other side of the tracks and I was scared to go there. As I grew older, I recognized that they aren't some group of wildmen that will kill me if I go there. I made some Black friends in college and my prejudice just went away.
I also felt the same way about gays when I was young and ignorant. I was told by the religious, Church-going, Right wing in Chicago what deviations these weird people would do. It disgusted me. I kept these views until I met some gay people in LA. I learned that they were people - not wild carnal animals. They also ate food and brushed their teeth. They had some preferences that differed from mine. So, I stopped being disgusted about what they do in their bedroom because some people like the Dolphins and some people like the 49ers. There's nothing to reject in that.
Social reality.
Seen many people walking around town nude lately?
I rest my case.
Most of the choices we make everyday are automatic and were first made by people long dead. My local Apple store employs Goths. You won't see many Wall Street men without ties around their necks and women without high heals.
No one is forcing you, Kd, to believe anything you want about homosexuality or anything else. You are free to ignore all the facts you like. And you take full advantage of that freedom.
carnoj, should an employer be able to fire people for wearing a cross on a necklace or a cross on a wedding ring advertising their faith?
I guess even the aliens would be here "naturally" because this planet is just one of many they can visit in this natural universe.
I guess only the natural people can decide who belongs to their club. Everyone else is unnatural and should be placed in the closet out of sight.
That will make the world natural again.